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	<title>Comments on: On Cruel and Continuing Punishment</title>
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		<title>By: OceansOfThought</title>
		<link>http://thestormypresent.com/ocean/2008/04/16/on-cruel-and-continuing-punishment/comment-page-1/#comment-56</link>
		<dc:creator>OceansOfThought</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:55:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestormypresent.com/ocean/2008/04/16/on-cruel-and-continuing-punishment/#comment-56</guid>
		<description>Normally, or 9 times out of 10 the things I post on don&#039;t have anything to do with me but i can definitively say that i&#039;ve been taken to jail on a moving violation.  It&#039;s an option the police CAN exorcise and in my situation it was.  My original posting was on a Jon Stewarts wife, who got caught up for a moving violation, then was taken in on a suspended liscense (because the state had not yet cashed her check) and had to be bailed out after hours of processing.   In reading about that, i wondered how long and how much money a small oversite by the state would have cost us in fees, court time and effort, just so the state can go &quot;whoops&quot;.  That was where i got the &quot;tickets&quot; example from. 

I don&#039;t think all crimes are to be treated equally, infact that&#039;s the point of my post, that crimes are definately not to be treated equally. And yes, i know different amalgum of states have different laws for different criminals and felonies. In California i can be sent for 25 years to life for stealing 10 packs of Cig on 3 occassions, or i can murder someone.  The punishment itself isn&#039;t bad +3 crimes means habitual-, just the relating to other crimes is slightly (ok obviously jacked).  Because of Mandataory sentencing laws, a judge has to give me (in the cig example 25 years when really , 5 or 10 is more apporitate).  In that case, i might as well shoot someone, i&#039;m getting the time anyway.
[used self as an example only in the stealing and killing people thing. don&#039;t know one panic.]
I&#039;ll try to be clearer in the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Normally, or 9 times out of 10 the things I post on don&#8217;t have anything to do with me but i can definitively say that i&#8217;ve been taken to jail on a moving violation.  It&#8217;s an option the police CAN exorcise and in my situation it was.  My original posting was on a Jon Stewarts wife, who got caught up for a moving violation, then was taken in on a suspended liscense (because the state had not yet cashed her check) and had to be bailed out after hours of processing.   In reading about that, i wondered how long and how much money a small oversite by the state would have cost us in fees, court time and effort, just so the state can go &#8220;whoops&#8221;.  That was where i got the &#8220;tickets&#8221; example from. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think all crimes are to be treated equally, infact that&#8217;s the point of my post, that crimes are definately not to be treated equally. And yes, i know different amalgum of states have different laws for different criminals and felonies. In California i can be sent for 25 years to life for stealing 10 packs of Cig on 3 occassions, or i can murder someone.  The punishment itself isn&#8217;t bad +3 crimes means habitual-, just the relating to other crimes is slightly (ok obviously jacked).  Because of Mandataory sentencing laws, a judge has to give me (in the cig example 25 years when really , 5 or 10 is more apporitate).  In that case, i might as well shoot someone, i&#8217;m getting the time anyway.<br />
[used self as an example only in the stealing and killing people thing. don't know one panic.]<br />
I&#8217;ll try to be clearer in the future.</p>
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		<title>By: FlannelDoormat</title>
		<link>http://thestormypresent.com/ocean/2008/04/16/on-cruel-and-continuing-punishment/comment-page-1/#comment-55</link>
		<dc:creator>FlannelDoormat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:46:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestormypresent.com/ocean/2008/04/16/on-cruel-and-continuing-punishment/#comment-55</guid>
		<description>You speak as though all crimes are treated equally.  The voting thing only really applies to felons, and someone that just &quot;stole from a store&quot; generally doens&#039;t quite fit into this category.  Also, most states don&#039;t remove the voting rights indefinately, they are either automatically reinstated or can be petitioned, depending on where you live.  Another thing, moving violations (ie. traffic tickets) are not felonies unless you kill someone (vehicular homicide) or if you become violent upon arrest.  I don&#039;t particularly like to defend the man, but in this case I think it&#039;s important to know the rules you&#039;re protesting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You speak as though all crimes are treated equally.  The voting thing only really applies to felons, and someone that just &#8220;stole from a store&#8221; generally doens&#8217;t quite fit into this category.  Also, most states don&#8217;t remove the voting rights indefinately, they are either automatically reinstated or can be petitioned, depending on where you live.  Another thing, moving violations (ie. traffic tickets) are not felonies unless you kill someone (vehicular homicide) or if you become violent upon arrest.  I don&#8217;t particularly like to defend the man, but in this case I think it&#8217;s important to know the rules you&#8217;re protesting.</p>
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		<title>By: OceansOfThought</title>
		<link>http://thestormypresent.com/ocean/2008/04/16/on-cruel-and-continuing-punishment/comment-page-1/#comment-54</link>
		<dc:creator>OceansOfThought</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestormypresent.com/ocean/2008/04/16/on-cruel-and-continuing-punishment/#comment-54</guid>
		<description>All very good points.  One thing i like to stress is that my part about &quot;the good days for criminals&quot; extened to when cruel and unusual punishment actual was enforced. Feeding people to lions was not of that era.  Infact , the era of &quot;a good prison&quot; was 1900 to world war II in America, specifically.  That&#039;s when you basically did your crime, did your time and were out.  Proabition, Hitler and the depression made us (as a nation) rather stalwart, angry and unforgiving. 

As for it being a band-aid. Yes.  It is..., education is the way to go but i&#039;m specifically speaking about what happens to educated people who enter the crimial justice system.  For example. Say a red light is run and you get pulled over.  You can be arrested.  The ticket says so.  We, as a people, are aghast at the stupid waste of time to arrest someone under those circumstances, yet if you are, you now face 12 hours of processing, and multiple days of court fees and appearances.  And that&#039;s if you plead guilty!  It&#039;s not really hard for people to fall into the cracks.  

But on Criminals. &quot;i stole from a store.&quot;  I believe, you stole, and you go to jail.  Why can&#039;t you vote when you get out? Why are you automatically disqualifed from a job?  Sure you could do it again, but what if the circumstances mattered? I think they should matter. After all, you were not Ted Bundy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All very good points.  One thing i like to stress is that my part about &#8220;the good days for criminals&#8221; extened to when cruel and unusual punishment actual was enforced. Feeding people to lions was not of that era.  Infact , the era of &#8220;a good prison&#8221; was 1900 to world war II in America, specifically.  That&#8217;s when you basically did your crime, did your time and were out.  Proabition, Hitler and the depression made us (as a nation) rather stalwart, angry and unforgiving. </p>
<p>As for it being a band-aid. Yes.  It is&#8230;, education is the way to go but i&#8217;m specifically speaking about what happens to educated people who enter the crimial justice system.  For example. Say a red light is run and you get pulled over.  You can be arrested.  The ticket says so.  We, as a people, are aghast at the stupid waste of time to arrest someone under those circumstances, yet if you are, you now face 12 hours of processing, and multiple days of court fees and appearances.  And that&#8217;s if you plead guilty!  It&#8217;s not really hard for people to fall into the cracks.  </p>
<p>But on Criminals. &#8220;i stole from a store.&#8221;  I believe, you stole, and you go to jail.  Why can&#8217;t you vote when you get out? Why are you automatically disqualifed from a job?  Sure you could do it again, but what if the circumstances mattered? I think they should matter. After all, you were not Ted Bundy.</p>
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		<title>By: FlannelDoormat</title>
		<link>http://thestormypresent.com/ocean/2008/04/16/on-cruel-and-continuing-punishment/comment-page-1/#comment-53</link>
		<dc:creator>FlannelDoormat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:10:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thestormypresent.com/ocean/2008/04/16/on-cruel-and-continuing-punishment/#comment-53</guid>
		<description>This should come as no surprise, but I&#039;ve got a few opinions on slight variations of this topic.  

First of all, you talk about how things &quot;used to be&quot; when men were treated fairly by the judicial system, and I think that is a false image ingrained in many minds by the perpetuations of our media.  We’re led to believe that an ideal scenario actually happened at some point (call it the “leave it to beaver” syndrome if you will).  Husbands weren’t all sober and kind to their wives, neighbors weren’t always friendly and helpful, government wasn’t always led by honorable men, and criminals weren’t always treated fairly.  

Throughout history “criminals” have been fed to lions, imprisoned for stealing bread, killed because of their brother’s involvement in organized crime (or opposing it), women have been (and are) stoned for adultery while their male counterparts roam free, people were hung for being different, burned for speaking out, shackled for having ideas, exiled for writing, the list goes on and on.  

Anyhow, that’s not my real point.  Rehabilitative measures are a band-aid (at best) for the problem of “increasing” criminal offenses.  The real solutions need to be addressed much earlier; why do people commit crimes?  Some because they’re psychotic/sociopathic (in which case rehabilitation is useless), but not most offenses happen because of poverty, the only way out of this is education.  People need to be taught how to act, how to take care of themselves, how to respect themselves and others, to have pride in doing well, etc.  

This is increasingly difficult in ever-expanding subcultures that don’t place an inherent value on education or intellect.  This is never a popular solution because it takes time, time, money, and time.  Everyone wants a solution now, but we need to look to the situation in 20 years when the criminals’ children have followed their fathers’ examples.  We need to teach these children to fish while they still want to learn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This should come as no surprise, but I&#8217;ve got a few opinions on slight variations of this topic.  </p>
<p>First of all, you talk about how things &#8220;used to be&#8221; when men were treated fairly by the judicial system, and I think that is a false image ingrained in many minds by the perpetuations of our media.  We’re led to believe that an ideal scenario actually happened at some point (call it the “leave it to beaver” syndrome if you will).  Husbands weren’t all sober and kind to their wives, neighbors weren’t always friendly and helpful, government wasn’t always led by honorable men, and criminals weren’t always treated fairly.  </p>
<p>Throughout history “criminals” have been fed to lions, imprisoned for stealing bread, killed because of their brother’s involvement in organized crime (or opposing it), women have been (and are) stoned for adultery while their male counterparts roam free, people were hung for being different, burned for speaking out, shackled for having ideas, exiled for writing, the list goes on and on.  </p>
<p>Anyhow, that’s not my real point.  Rehabilitative measures are a band-aid (at best) for the problem of “increasing” criminal offenses.  The real solutions need to be addressed much earlier; why do people commit crimes?  Some because they’re psychotic/sociopathic (in which case rehabilitation is useless), but not most offenses happen because of poverty, the only way out of this is education.  People need to be taught how to act, how to take care of themselves, how to respect themselves and others, to have pride in doing well, etc.  </p>
<p>This is increasingly difficult in ever-expanding subcultures that don’t place an inherent value on education or intellect.  This is never a popular solution because it takes time, time, money, and time.  Everyone wants a solution now, but we need to look to the situation in 20 years when the criminals’ children have followed their fathers’ examples.  We need to teach these children to fish while they still want to learn.</p>
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